[Alsa-user] ASUS Xonar Essence STX/low impedance (16-32 ohm) headphones support

[Balduin Waldmeister]

Hello and THX for ALSA - I'm using it on Ubuntu/Linux Mint to get the best out of my ASUS Xonar Essence STX sound card and it just works great.

The new STX II has (on Windows at least) an interesting feature for use with low impedance (< 32 ohm) headphones, see Impeccable headphone amplification (below "Exquisite headphone gain control" oh the linked ASUS site). Unfortunately this is the only upgrade from STX -> STX II that I would need regarding my low impedance headphones (22 - 25 ohm e.g., Denon AH-D7100) and of course that's not worth buying a new and rather expensive sound card. Furthermorde I'd need that feature on Linux and not on Windows.

So my question is whether it's possible to add the low impedance support (16 - 32 ohm) to ALSA for use with the old STX? Currently it stops at the normal gain setting (< 64 ohm).

Best regards,
detlev24

[michael norman]

On 29/04/14 15:52, Balduin Waldmeister wrote:
> Hello and THX for ALSA - I'm using it on Ubuntu/Linux Mint to get the
> best out of my ASUS Xonar Essence STX sound card and it just works great.
>
> The new STX *II* has (on Windows at least) an interesting feature for
> use with low impedance (< 32 ohm) headphones, see Impeccable headphone
> amplification <http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards/Essence_STX_II/> (below
> "Exquisite headphone gain control" oh the linked ASUS site).
> Unfortunately this is the only upgrade from STX -> STX *II* that I would
> need regarding my low impedance headphones (22 - 25 ohm e.g., Denon
> AH-D7100) and of course that's not worth buying a new and rather
> expensive sound card. Furthermorde I'd need that feature on Linux and
> not on Windows.
>
> So my question is whether it's possible to add the low impedance support
> (16 - 32 ohm) to ALSA for use with the old STX? Currently it stops at
> the normal gain setting (< 64 ohm).
>
> Best regards,
> detlev24
>
>
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>
FWIW I have the STX card. as I've had it for about a year I assume its
not a *11"

I run both Linux Mint 16 and openSUSE 12.3 on the box the card is in.

I have never run it in Windows.

On LM 16 I use the pulseaudio mixer which when switched to headphone
output does not provide the low impedance option. On openSUSE 12.3
using the kmix mixer from KDE3 I get 3 impedance options to choose from.

Not sure how it helps you but the option you want is certainly available
here on openSUSE.

Something for ALSA devs to answer ?

Michael

[michael norman]

On 29/04/14 17:08, Bill Unruh wrote:
>
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, michael norman wrote:
>
>> On 29/04/14 15:52, Balduin Waldmeister wrote:
>>> Hello and THX for ALSA - I'm using it on Ubuntu/Linux Mint to get the
>>> best out of my ASUS Xonar Essence STX sound card and it just works
>>> great.
>>>
>>> The new STX *II* has (on Windows at least) an interesting feature for
>>> use with low impedance (< 32 ohm) headphones, see Impeccable headphone
>>> amplification <http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards/Essence_STX_II/> (below
>>> "Exquisite headphone gain control" oh the linked ASUS site).
>>> Unfortunately this is the only upgrade from STX -> STX *II* that I would
>>> need regarding my low impedance headphones (22 - 25 ohm e.g., Denon
>>> AH-D7100) and of course that's not worth buying a new and rather
>>> expensive sound card. Furthermorde I'd need that feature on Linux and
>>> not on Windows.
>>>
>>> So my question is whether it's possible to add the low impedance support
>>> (16 - 32 ohm) to ALSA for use with the old STX? Currently it stops at
>>> the normal gain setting (< 64 ohm).
>
> That has to do with the capabilities of the amplifier on board the sound
> card,
> not the settings of the card. The amplifier needs to be able to deliver
> high
> current and have a low output impedence-- ie it is a hardware issue.
> Not at all sure what the impdence settings on the card would do. Maybe the
> output impedence has a reactive part and thus one would get a bad frequency
> response on lower impedence. That would indicate a badly designed output
> stage. Having looked at the advertising that seems to be what it is.
> Instead
> of saying "we badly designed the output stage, and these settings are a
> half
> assed attempt to compensate" they make it sound like a positive feature.
> And what's with the swappable op-amps, which "allow users to create
> different
> timbres and tonal combinations." which sounds nuts to me. A sound card
> should
> take the input and produce an output which was an exact copy of the
> input. Not
> something that "creates different timbres and tonal combinations."
>
> Note that buying a separate headphone amp for the soundcard might be the
> way
> to go, rather than buying a new soundcard.
>
>
>
Lets be quite clear here the Essence STX was specifically designed for
music listening particularly on headphones

see the ASUS site

http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards_and_DigitaltoAnalog_Converters/Xonar_Essence_STX/

In my experience it does everything they say it does.

None of what you say makes any sense related to the OPs question

Michael.

[Bill Unruh]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2014, michael norman wrote:

> On 29/04/14 15:52, Balduin Waldmeister wrote:
>> Hello and THX for ALSA - I'm using it on Ubuntu/Linux Mint to get the
>> best out of my ASUS Xonar Essence STX sound card and it just works great.
>>
>> The new STX *II* has (on Windows at least) an interesting feature for
>> use with low impedance (< 32 ohm) headphones, see Impeccable headphone
>> amplification <http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards/Essence_STX_II/> (below
>> "Exquisite headphone gain control" oh the linked ASUS site).
>> Unfortunately this is the only upgrade from STX -> STX *II* that I would
>> need regarding my low impedance headphones (22 - 25 ohm e.g., Denon
>> AH-D7100) and of course that's not worth buying a new and rather
>> expensive sound card. Furthermorde I'd need that feature on Linux and
>> not on Windows.
>>
>> So my question is whether it's possible to add the low impedance support
>> (16 - 32 ohm) to ALSA for use with the old STX? Currently it stops at
>> the normal gain setting (< 64 ohm).

That has to do with the capabilities of the amplifier on board the sound card,
not the settings of the card. The amplifier needs to be able to deliver high
current and have a low output impedence-- ie it is a hardware issue.
Not at all sure what the impdence settings on the card would do. Maybe the
output impedence has a reactive part and thus one would get a bad frequency
response on lower impedence. That would indicate a badly designed output
stage. Having looked at the advertising that seems to be what it is. Instead
of saying "we badly designed the output stage, and these settings are a half
assed attempt to compensate" they make it sound like a positive feature.
And what's with the swappable op-amps, which "allow users to create different
timbres and tonal combinations." which sounds nuts to me. A sound card should
take the input and produce an output which was an exact copy of the input. Not
something that "creates different timbres and tonal combinations."

Note that buying a separate headphone amp for the soundcard might be the way
to go, rather than buying a new soundcard.

[Balduin Waldmeister]

Thank you for your replies. Maybe this concerns more the ALSA developers.

Yes, the STX drives all kinds of headphones and most of them very well but it lacks on low impedance (<32 ohm) models. This is due to the headphone output impedance of 10 ohm on the STX and also on the new STX II. Thus it theoretically is perfect for headphones >80 ohm, although ASUS claims to have it (the old STX) optimized for headphones 32 - 600 ohm (probably by its drivers). Please see:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/meridian-explorer-case-study-effects-output-impedance/ (an example to explain the "why?")
http://www.asus.com/News/knWtTLpnXrb1YaqR/ (see "Headphone impedance")

Instead of releasing a headphone output <10 ohm on the STX II (e.g., 2 ohm) to resolve the old STX's well known issue with low impedance headphones (16 - 32 ohm), ASUS seems to address it on their Window driver (only) for the STX II, as mentioned before.

Right now, for the old STX, you find on AlsaMixer the following three settings:

<64 ohms (which in reality is 32-64 ohm)
64-300 ohms
300-600 ohms

Thus I really would appreciate - if possible - an additional 16-32 ohm optimization on ALSA for the old STX; enabling fun playback also on top notch low impedance headphones e.g., Fostex TH-900 (25 ohm) or Audeze LCD-XC (22 ohm).

Best regards,
Balduin

PS: Maybe you are right and buying an additional headphone amp is the only way to go when using an old STX...

[chris hermansen]

Maybe this is getting off topic for this list...

But anyway...

On Apr 29, 2014 1:34 PM, "Balduin Waldmeister" <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you for your replies. Maybe this concerns more the ALSA developers.
>
> Yes, the STX drives all kinds of headphones and most of them very well
but it lacks on low impedance (<32 ohm) models. This is due to the
headphone output impedance of 10 ohm on the STX and also on the new STX II.
Thus it theoretically is perfect for headphones >80 ohm, although ASUS
claims to have it (the old STX) optimized for headphones 32 - 600 ohm
(probably by its drivers). Please see:
>
>
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/meridian-explorer-case-study-effects-output-impedance/
(an example to explain the "why?")
> http://www.asus.com/News/knWtTLpnXrb1YaqR/ (see "Headphone impedance")
>
> Instead of releasing a headphone output <10 ohm on the STX II (e.g., 2
ohm) to resolve the old STX's well known issue with low impedance
headphones (16 - 32 ohm), ASUS seems to address it on their Window driver
(only) for the STX II, as mentioned before.
>
> Right now, for the old STX, you find on AlsaMixer the following three
settings:
>
> <64 ohms (which in reality is 32-64 ohm)
> 64-300 ohms
> 300-600 ohms
>
> Thus I really would appreciate - if possible - an additional 16-32 ohm
optimization on ALSA for the old STX; enabling fun playback also on top
notch low impedance headphones e.g., Fostex TH-900 (25 ohm) or Audeze
LCD-XC (22 ohm).
>
> Best regards,
> Balduin
>
> PS: Maybe you are right and buying an additional headphone amp is the
only way to go when using an old STX...

If you read the article you quote carefully, you should struggle to
understand how some kind of digital processing can compensate for too-high
output impedance into an arbitrary set of low-impedance headphones.

The point being the frequency response aberrations depend on the headphone
in question's impedance at varying frequencies - not something that can be
corrected for in an a priori fashion.

Also the damping problems created by too-high output impedance result in
underdamped signal excursions which AFAIK cannot be fixed by some kind of
frequency response filter.

Seems to me the logical thing to do would be to get a higher impedance set
of cans, or maybe an outboard headphone amp with low output impedance.

[Clemens Ladisch]

Bill Unruh wrote:
>> On 29/04/14 15:52, Balduin Waldmeister wrote:
>>> So my question is whether it's possible to add the low impedance support
>>> (16 - 32 ohm) to ALSA for use with the old STX? Currently it stops at
>>> the normal gain setting (< 64 ohm).
>
> That has to do with the capabilities of the amplifier on board the sound card,
> not the settings of the card. The amplifier needs to be able to deliver high
> current and have a low output impedence-- ie it is a hardware issue.
> Not at all sure what the impdence settings on the card would do.

The "impedance" setting just lowers the volume. (<300 Ω and <64 Ω are
-6 dB and -18 dB.) I didn't think this was worth implementing in the
Linux driver, but people whined until I did.

It is certainly possible to add a fourth setting.

Being charitable, this might not be a HiFi Voodoo stunt by Asus
marketing, but an honest attempt at preventing unhealthily loud
output levels ...


Regards,
Clemens

[chris hermansen]

Clemens and list,

On Apr 30, 2014 12:07 AM, "Clemens Ladisch" <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Bill Unruh wrote:
> >> On 29/04/14 15:52, Balduin Waldmeister wrote:
> >>> So my question is whether it's possible to add the low impedance
support
> >>> (16 - 32 ohm) to ALSA for use with the old STX? Currently it stops at
> >>> the normal gain setting (< 64 ohm).
> >
> > That has to do with the capabilities of the amplifier on board the
sound card,
> > not the settings of the card. The amplifier needs to be able to deliver
high
> > current and have a low output impedence-- ie it is a hardware issue.
> > Not at all sure what the impdence settings on the card would do.
>
> The "impedance" setting just lowers the volume. (<300 ℩ and <64 ℩ are
> -6 dB and -18 dB.) I didn't think this was worth implementing in the
> Linux driver, but people whined until I did.
>
> It is certainly possible to add a fourth setting.
>
> Being charitable, this might not be a HiFi Voodoo stunt by Asus
> marketing, but an honest attempt at preventing unhealthily loud
> output levels ...

As someone who has benefitted from your incredible support over (at least)
the last few years...

Wow. I sit at your feet master to benefit from your teachings on being
charitable. Evidently I have a great deal more to learn on this matter (to
say the least).

[Bill Unruh]

On Wed, 30 Apr 2014, chris hermansen wrote:
>
> Clemens and list,
>
> On Apr 30, 2014 12:07 AM, "Clemens Ladisch" <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Bill Unruh wrote:
> > >> On 29/04/14 15:52, Balduin Waldmeister wrote:
> > >>> So my question is whether it's possible to add the low impedance support
> > >>> (16 - 32 ohm) to ALSA for use with the old STX? Currently it stops at
> > >>> the normal gain setting (< 64 ohm).
> > >
> > > That has to do with the capabilities of the amplifier on board the sound card,
> > > not the settings of the card. The amplifier needs to be able to deliver high
> > > current and have a low output impedence-- ie it is a hardware issue.
> > > Not at all sure what the impdence settings on the card would do.
> >
> > The "impedance" setting just lowers the volume. (<300 ? and <64 ? are
> > -6 dB and -18 dB.) I didn't think this was worth implementing in the
> > Linux driver, but people whined until I did.
> >
> > It is certainly possible to add a fourth setting.

In the advertising bunff from the company, they have graphs with horrendously
unequal frequency response ( a huge bump in the middle of the spectrum) and
they say that the impedance setting boost bass and treble more than mids to
equalize it. Now that could be just marketing having no idea, or it could mean
that the designers designed a horrendous output stage with large capacitive
and inductive loadings so that into low impedances, they took over and
produced very bad frequency response, and those setting stuck in compensatory
bass and treble boosts. But you might also be right that this is all
marketing.

> >
> > Being charitable, this might not be a HiFi Voodoo stunt by Asus
> > marketing, but an honest attempt at preventing unhealthily loud
> > output levels ...

Or to prevent distortion since the low impedance may demand too much current
for the drivers at higher amplitudes.

>
> As someone who has benefitted from your incredible support over (at least) the last few years...
>
> Wow. I sit at your feet master to benefit from your teachings on being charitable. Evidently I have a great deal more to learn on
> this matter (to say the least).
>
>
>

[Per Andersson]

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Unruh
> Sent: 05/01/14 06:40 AM
> To: chris hermansen
> Subject: Re: [Alsa-user] ASUS Xonar Essence STX/low impedance (16-32 ohm) headphones support
>
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2014, chris hermansen wrote:
> >
> > Clemens and list,
> >
> > On Apr 30, 2014 12:07 AM, "Clemens Ladisch" <***@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill Unruh wrote:
> > > >> On 29/04/14 15:52, Balduin Waldmeister wrote:
> > > >>> So my question is whether it's possible to add the low impedance support
> > > >>> (16 - 32 ohm) to ALSA for use with the old STX? Currently it stops at
> > > >>> the normal gain setting (< 64 ohm).
> > > >
> > > > That has to do with the capabilities of the amplifier on board the sound card,
> > > > not the settings of the card. The amplifier needs to be able to deliver high
> > > > current and have a low output impedence-- ie it is a hardware issue.
> > > > Not at all sure what the impdence settings on the card would do.
> > >
> > > The "impedance" setting just lowers the volume. (<300 ? and <64 ? are
> > > -6 dB and -18 dB.) I didn't think this was worth implementing in the
> > > Linux driver, but people whined until I did.
> > >
> > > It is certainly possible to add a fourth setting.
>
> In the advertising bunff from the company, they have graphs with horrendously
> unequal frequency response ( a huge bump in the middle of the spectrum) and
> they say that the impedance setting boost bass and treble more than mids to
> equalize it. Now that could be just marketing having no idea, or it could mean
> that the designers designed a horrendous output stage with large capacitive
> and inductive loadings so that into low impedances, they took over and
> produced very bad frequency response, and those setting stuck in compensatory
> bass and treble boosts. But you might also be right that this is all
> marketing.

Maybe this EQ happens in Win$ driver, depending on impedance settings?

>
> > >
> > > Being charitable, this might not be a HiFi Voodoo stunt by Asus
> > > marketing, but an honest attempt at preventing unhealthily loud
> > > output levels ...
>
> Or to prevent distortion since the low impedance may demand too much current
> for the drivers at higher amplitudes.


Best regards

 Per Andersson

Senior developer
Artifex Software

***@europe.com

[Balduin Waldmeister]

Thanks to everyone for their attention! And sorry for my late reply.


Per Andersson wrote:
>
> Maybe this EQ happens in Win$ driver, depending on impedance settings?
>

This is at least what I thought and if so it would be nice to have it implemented into ALSA.

Happy listening,
Balduin

[Clemens Ladisch]

Balduin Waldmeister wrote:
> Per Andersson wrote:
>> Maybe this EQ happens in Win$ driver, depending on impedance settings?
>
> This is at least what I thought and if so it would be nice to have it implemented into ALSA.

The Windows driver has an equalizer, but that is completely independent
from the impedance setting. The HP output works perfectly fine; any
nonlinearities of the headphones would be impossible to automatically
detect by the card or its driver.


Regards,
Clemens

[ChaosEsque Team]

Fuck systemd.
Fuck lennart and kay.
Fuck pulseaudio.
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/9/14, Balduin Waldmeister <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Alsa-user] ASUS Xonar Essence STX/low impedance (16-32 ohm) headphones support
To: "Per Andersson" <***@europe.com>, "Bill Unruh" <***@physics.ubc.ca>, "chris hermansen" <***@gmail.com>
Cc: "alsa-***@lists.sourceforge.net" <alsa-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Date: Friday, May 9, 2014, 8:37 AM

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Thanks to everyone for their attention! And
sorry for my late reply.


Per Andersson wrote:
>
> Maybe this EQ
happens in Win$ driver, depending on impedance settings?
>

This is
at least what I thought and if so it would be nice to have
it implemented into ALSA.

Happy listening,
Balduin

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